In this podcast, artist and land conservationist Haley Mellin talks with the Arts Management and Technology Lab about actions artists and arts organizations of all sizes can take to measure their climate impact, reduce emissions, and support biodiversity protection.

Mellin is the founder of Art into Acres, a non-profit organization which connects artists and arts institutions with large-scale land conservation projects focused on climate, Indigenous peoples, and beta-diversity. Additionally, Mellin co-founded Conserve.org, the MOCA Environmental Council in Los Angeles, Art and Climate Action, Artists Commit, and Gallery Climate Coalition’s New York chapter. She was a member of the Whitney Museum’s Independent Studio Program and holds a PhD in Visual Culture and Education from New York University.

TRANSCRIPTION

Hannah Brainard

Thank you for listening to another episode of Tech in the Arts, the podcast series of the Arts Management and Technology Laboratory at Carnegie Mellon University. The goal of our podcast series is to exchange ideas, bring awareness and stay on top of the trends. My name is Hannah Brainard, my pronouns are she/her, and I’m the lead researcher with AMT Lab. In this series, we’re exploring the intersections of climate and the arts through interviews with leaders across disciplines. We hope you’ll learn more about actions you or your organization can take toward a more sustainable future.

Today, I’m joined by artist and conservationist Dr. Haley Mellin. Combining these disciplines, she founded Art into Acres, a non-profit organization which connects artists and arts institutions with large-scale land conservation projects focused on climate, Indigenous peoples, and beta-diversity. Additionally, Mellin co-founded Conserve.org, the MOCA Environmental Council in Los Angeles, Art and Climate Action, Artists Commit, and Gallery Climate Coalition’s New York chapter. She was a member of the Whitney Museum’s Independent Studio Program and holds a PhD in Visual Culture and Education from New York University.

Hannah Brainard

Haley, thank you so much for joining us today, it's so much fun to have you on the AMT Lab podcast.

Haley Mellin

Thank you, Hannah. It's really great to be here.

Hannah Brainard

So just to start off, my first big question is - why do you think that art and art institutions have a critical role in land conservation and environmental sustainability work?

Haley Mellin

Interesting question. I think that we all have a critical role, as in all humans, and the community and publics that I tend to work with are within the arts, as a painter. So that's where I find home. And that's also where I have learned, you know, history of discourse and actions. And I feel like land conservation, and environmental sustainability work is a certain kind of expression of art, just like painting is a certain kind of expression of art, and that's where I have wanted to engage action. I think also that art and arts institutions are important to land conservation and environmental sustainability work, because within the art sector, you have unfolding dialogues about ethics, morals, the integrity of the cultural space. I think the cultural space is a space wherein both ancient histories and the concept of new, or newness, or innovation are held in concert and held in cohabitation. So it allows a very relevant community to come together, a diverse community, also a diverse historical community to come together and learn and try to make an effort in a way that is good for the future of humanity.

Hannah Brainard

Absolutely. I think I have been so inspired to see many of the major arts institutions taking on climate and sustainability work all in all sorts of unique and different ways. I was telling you earlier that I think every organization that I see that's doing this work, your name is on there somewhere, because I think you've been such a critical role in helping arts organizations adopt this. So I'm kind of curious how you've taken these two disciplines and connected them in your work, and specifically in this organization called Art into Acres, sort of how that came to be and how you took that on?

Haley Mellin

I just like, I'm just so passionate, and I love this work. I love what I do. I love the arts community. And so it has just been easy. But, I have had a number of years now getting up at 3 or 4 in the morning. I have 16 hour days. And I've learned about observing a day off. But in general, I work really long hours. For me, I spent about 15 years on research before initiating Art into Acres in 2017, which is now a nonprofit, and that initiative was really focused on supporting the arts communities, artists, curators, institutions, public collectors, and permanent land conservation. Sort of like large scale, permanent habitat conservation for biodiverse species in the form of new Indigenous-led conservation are protected areas, to national parks to community conserved areas. Then at the same time, in like 2019, an artist, Mika Rottenberg, reached out and she's like, “Hey, I would really love to include land conservation as a line item on an exhibition I'm doing with Naomi Beckwith at the MCA Chicago.” And so I think, conserved seven acres. You know, there was like travel and building walls and then seven acres. And this was in a cloud forest that had been unprotected in northern Guatemala. And with that, the interest of engaging institutions and engaging the wider climate sector became really of interest to me so that land conservation could be thought of from the biodiversity perspective, but also from the climate and carbon conservation perspective, like what is carbon? What is carbon emissions? How do we draw down carbon emissions and take carbon from a gaseous state as carbon dioxide and make it into a physical state as sequestered carbon or as plant matter through photosynthesis? And that was in about 2020, when I did my first ever carbon calculation. It was a pro bono one for the Guggenheim, and it was the first one in the United States. And then for about two years, I offered that service to institutions and galleries pro bono, and then the Teiger Foundation stepped forward and 2022. And they said, this is such a great learning experience for curators. And so that sort of grounded me more in institutional work. And then also in teaching, so like the last course I just gave was at the Met Museum for their curatorial and conservation staff on ‘What is carbon and what is climate?’ So I think that land conservation, starting initiatives like Art + Climate Action, or the MOCA Environmental Council, or Artists Commit, really made sense alongside one another. And it's been wonderful to work with the broader arts community on a range of different initiatives for sustainability.

Hannah Brainard

I had no idea that that was your first time with the Guggenheim doing sort of a carbon emissions report. I'm curious, as you were working with them, some of the things that - well, first, just a little bit about your process and how you conducted the report and things that maybe you've done differently or changed now. And sort of some of your key findings, what were some of the biggest areas of emissions for the museum and what you see?

Haley Mellin

Yeah, so prior to that 2020, there has really only been two done globally. One was the Tate. Tate really stepped out in terms of their environmental sustainability. I think, as early as 2010. And then the Frieze Art Fair. They had done a carbon emissions study of their affair in London and shifted to biodiesel based on their scope 1, scope 2 results, which is essentially like the energy portion of carbon calculation. I think they reduced their energy-related emissions by 64%, because of that shift. So, carbon dioxide is one of our most predominant greenhouse gasses, because there's others - like methane is exceptionally spacious. It's also something we can't see and we can't smell. So the way we learn about it is by doing these like math-based calculations, and then we get numbers, and we look at the numbers, and we reflect and then we look to reduce those numbers. So it's a lot of math and the math, every year, changes. There's different standards and methodologies. It improves, which is really neat. And it's great for people to learn about this gas that is a pollution to humans, it's not a pollution to a rock. A rock doesn't care much about carbon dioxide, but humans do. There have been times in Earth's history that we have more CO2 than we do in the atmosphere, but not in human history. So it's a pollution to us because of how it impacts the climate. Jonathan Safron Foer wrote a great book called We are the Weather: Saving the Planet Begins at Breakfast. And he really starts out by defining climate, which means long term weather. Like, what is our weather like over time? So essentially as an atmospheric conversation, carbon dioxide being something we can't see is something really interesting to focus on in the arts. And so when the Guggenheim reached out and they said “Would you do this calculation?” I was literally going to Colombia to meet with a fellow due diligence team, a fellow foundation, and the Minister of the Environment and National Parks in Colombia about founding, creating, funding and finalizing what was and now is their last national park. So that was in February 2020, before COVID. That location just was declared, last November 2023, Manacacías National Park after three years of work. So I remember being in travel and like doing this carbon calculation for the Guggenheim and I think they learned a lot. They learned to keep things on the ground, I think 64% or 63% of that carbon calculation’s shipping was air, so we learned to just take things slower, keep them on the ground. Shipped by truck whenever possible, ship by boat. The other was to reduce the number of curatorial trips. So, rather than have X number of round trip flights go somewhere, stay there longer and go fewer times. I really applaud them for reaching out and asking for this and also for supporting land conservation in conjunction with the calculation as part of their drawdown efforts for that year. And, since then, I think the calculations have really evolved in the sense that over the last few years, as I unfolded more inaugural calculations with institutions, and nonprofits and community centers, the Gallery Climate Coalition calculator came into being. So we can use that pro bono. It's a great resource online, GCC, Gallery Climate Coalition calculator. For example, we just finished another series of calculations led by the ICA Miami for their recent exhibitions and Avery Singer, for example, and used that calculator. So it's free, and the staff this year did it, and I just did the last bits. And then, also, I work with Carbon Accounting Company up in Canada, for more complicated. So right now we're unfolding a calculation for a year of exhibitions and operations for the Metropolitan Museum. And once you get quite a lot of shipments, it's helpful to work with a professional company, because the spreadsheets get intense. But it's very exciting. And I think every time calculations happen, and the math comes back, and we look at reflected numbers, and we make the numbers real in terms of like, what does it translate in terms of real world experiences, I noticed that conservators and registrars and curators and artists find tangible things that they can change that are simple changes, and that manifest a reduction in emissions.

Hannah Brainard

I was going to ask about, you know, the Gallery Climate Coalition calculator, I've seen Julie's Bicycle and a couple others that are starting to emerge, but especially for smaller organizations, just as a way to get started and understand where you are right now. And sort of, I was curious if you felt that those tools would do the trick for large organizations, or if there any gaps of information that you would see? Working with the Carbon Accounting Company, and things like that, that kind of helped pull it all together?

Haley Mellin

I think that, you know, if you're new to this, and you're like, “hey, I'd like to try,” we just begin with like a first step. We just begin where we are, and you can sign up for free to go or Climate Coalition as a member. And part of that is just a commitment to a 50% reduction by 2030. So essentially aligned with the Paris Accord. And the calculator is really great to use, because you can input like, some flights and some shipments for an exhibition and then store it, and then come back. Danny Chivers, who's the sort of lead advisor for GCC is exceptionally brilliant. And the next version of calculators is due out, I think, this June 2024. And he and I have a call next week, just like to go over some of the details, I'm really excited to see the prototype. They just do a phenomenal job. And they do it, really, at the highest level. In terms of a larger institution, I think large or small, you can really use this calculator and learn a lot because - you know, in carbon, there's three types of scopes. As a painter, I have been learning more and more about ‘what is carbon?’ and it's exciting. But there's three types of scopes, like Scope 1 is your fuel, Scope 2 is your energy, and Scope 3 is everything else. So like we can just say like, I'm going to focus on my energy and calculate your Scope 1 and Scope 2, and that happens very quickly if you have your utility bills. We once did a calculation that was Mark Bradford’s exhibition in Menorca with Hauser & Wirth gallery. We got sort of nerdy and did like all of his studio materials for that exhibition, like every piece of paper. And we found that like, really just the majority of emissions come from a few things like shipping, what you serve at the meals, the travel of individuals, and then the energy and any sort of major build. So you can definitely use a free calculator for that. I think it's more when you're wanting to do board forward presentations, or really detailed reports, or if you're looking at doing a major overhaul in your energy and energy system, that then going with a certified independent calculation company is a good idea.

Hannah Brainard

So I guess sort of once an organization has a picture of what their impact is, one way that they might be able to kind of take what they know to make an impact is maybe working with Art into Acres to support land conservation projects. I'm curious what the avenues are to get involved with Art into Acres and how they might be able to support your work.

Haley Mellin

I think that, you know, there's so many different ways that unfolding sustainability, if you're an artist or studio, if you're a curator, if you're an institution, so many different avenues that it can be mutually beneficial, supportive, or gratifying. I'm thinking right now, since we're just talking about calculations that there's the Helen Frankenthaler Climate Initiative. And when you do a calculation, I think it raises your profile in terms of your application standing for the climate initiative grants, where you can shift your energy toward renewable sources or reduce energy expenses, and reduce carbon emissions. Recently, I just was on the inaugural panel jurying, the NEH’s new climate grants. And that's another thing one can do. So those two things are based on reduction efforts, which means that early on, we just want to make less emissions, but then you're not gonna be able to reduce entirely, right? Carbon is part of our ecosystem, it's part of our bodies, right? Charcoal is carbon, yeah, we breathe in and out. The body of plants is carbon. So carbon is the sixth most abundant atom on the planet, and it's a part of our daily life. So, alongside the Paris Accord commitment, you have a sort of 50% reduction by 2030, from the amount of emissions you're making today. So sort of, it's called a baseline, sort of calculate, okay, as an individual, I'm making 50 metric tons from what I buy, and my flights and my shipping etc. Okay, so with the Paris Accord, I'm going to reduce that to 25 metric tons. And how am I going to do that? I'm going to shift my energy source, I'll go on my utility bill, and I'll check, you know, green energy renewables. I'm going to travel less and stay places longer. I'm going to buy food that is local and shipped not so far, or that is more plant-based or entirely plant based, which has a major reduction in emissions, and a major benefit toward local wildlife. So I’m, 50% down, what about the other 50%? It's really important to not just like write that off. The other 50% really matters. So we still have carbon emissions in the atmosphere from the start of the Industrial Revolution, and you can be responsible for your emissions at any time. So the goal is to really draw down those emissions. And our natural world is our oldest and our most scaled technology, so to speak, for bringing CO2 out of the atmosphere and making it back into a physical form. And trees are like these big straws, and they're constantly pulling CO2 out of the atmosphere and making it into carbon. So Art into Acres supports global land conservation efforts, and land conservation, in particular, as the creation of new permanent protected areas. A new permanent protected area is really exciting. It's essentially land that could have been converted to use, but was noted for its high biodiversity, high beta diversity, its carbon density underground, its carbon storage density, and the global scientific and social communities have said this land should be protected. At times these locations and these landscapes are Indigenous-stewarded areas that have been, you know, the homes of communities that have endangered language systems, that have lived there for thousands of years, communities that don't have title to their land. And, you know, like 20% of the biodiverse land within the Amazonia is Indigenous-stewarded landscapes. So their aim is really to protect the land long-term, as in permanent land conservation, and Art into Acres works on funding and working with matching foundations to co-fund the creation of permanent protected areas. So what institutions or individuals or artists can do, to get involved is to learn about locations, to research, to really like to learn with us and ask good questions and to support acreage and its permanent protection.

Hannah Brainard

That’s amazing. I actually want to rewind, you used the term “beta diversity,” which was a new term to me sort of looking into your work. I wonder if you could explain a little bit of the difference between biodiversity versus beta diversity?

Haley Mellin

It's newer to me too. Biodiversity comes from the term biological diversity. It was coined by - I bet a bunch of people - but the person I know it was coined by was Dr. Thomas Lovejoy, who recently passed away. And he was a great biological scientist. He coined it in 1982, and was a teacher and mentor of mine over the last years. Biological diversity is essentially life on Earth, the diversity of life on Earth. We don't know how many species are on this planet, it's one of the things we're least educated about. There's a rough guess of 8.7 million, it could be 20 million, we don't know. But we do know about 1.8 million are described. So it is 8.7 million. That means we're about a seventh of the way through description. And if we continue at our current rate, I think they said we'll describe all species by like, I don't know, 2600. So, beta diversity is complex biodiversity. As a little chat book that F Houston published where I sort of did, I just did definitions for the entire chat book. And it's called On Biodiversity and Beta Diversity. Adam Marnie, Adam Marnie is a great artist, curator, and publisher. He's based in Texas and published this book with me, which was a real joy. And in it, we included the best definition of beta diversity we could come up with. It's again, a newer concept, based on historic realities, which is, essentially, it's like the web of life stacked. So imagine, like you had the web of life where species interact, and consume each other and energy flows. And then you had that in redundancy, like seven or eight times. So if a species had low count, or went extinct, there would be another to take up its role, and to really step in, and keep that web of life intact. So there's some great places on earth that are beta diverse. One is Mount Kilimanjaro. But yeah, I think beta diversity is very exciting for me also as a painter, because I just spiral into imagination, like, what would that look like? What does beta diversity look like?

Hannah Brainard

I feel like that, I don't know, it gives a little bit of hope to that. If one species goes extinct, though, that is never the goal, that may be something else could fill that space and life charges ahead. Interesting that beta diversity is sort of one of the criteria that you look at in evaluating a conservation project. I'm curious about some of those other factors that you look for are and how you partner with local or indigenous populations, really, to learn more about the spaces that you're working with?

Haley Mellin

Yeah, I think land conservation is something that's best engaged very slow. It always should be locally led. It should be something wherein you have, you know, ten or more years of research and local communities really advocating for either the habitat that they live on, or live near being conserved. And so mostly, you start with listening and listening to the intelligence behind the proposal of a project. I don't think any two conservation engagements are the same, because they are really defined by their local peoples. And the history and the biodiversity that's present, in addition to law. It really engages the language of law and what laws have been created in a particular area. On my end, I have focused on the western hemisphere. In particular, because I think the legal structures and thinking in conservation in the western hemisphere is something that makes sense. And also, frankly, the timezone is important. It really is fascinating that Art into Acres predominantly supports the creation of new Indigenous-protected and -conserved areas where in Indigenous communities want to conserve the habitat and landscape they live on or near. However, the majority of Art into Acres supported protected areas largely don't have any people living on them, they're very remote. So they'll have families live near them, and we work with just the most exceptional partners. So there will be like four or five conservation nonprofits, or or local teams supporting the new protected area. And conservation tends to be inherently collaborative, where people come together, and they give the resources that they can, because largely historically, it was a very underfunded activity. There wasn't enough money to do a project, so a number of different groups would come together and cobble together funds to make something happened. The conservation partners that we get to work with in the United States, such as Rewild Amazon Fund, and others, are organized by such good teams of people. And they work in concert with and in support of international and local groups. And it's exciting to see, you know, sometimes 12, different initiatives come together, different organizations. A new protected area that's in process in Honduras, the first time we've ever gotten to work in the country of Honduras, I think has 13 groups - everything from the president's office to the local institute, to the community-led indigenous-led groups that have formed on the ground there. So I'm just learning as I go, and it's pretty neat to see how people can care for a landscape and can work with local and regional and national laws to engage permanent protection.

Hannah Brainard

That's such an amazing process to hear about. And, you know, 13 plus groups coming together for a project like that is really fantastic. It makes me think of, I think, sort of the idea of like, carbon offsetting is big and well known. And I think companies view this as sort of like, well, here are our emissions, and we can check this box, that we're offsetting this much. And that sort of has maybe led to maybe some questionable ethics around some conservation projects or carbon sequestering projects. I've heard this term a lot “Strategic Climate Funds” versus traditional carbon offsetting - I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how those are different and maybe lead to different outcomes?

Haley Mellin

Absolutely. Thanks, Hannah. Well, let's jump into some definitions. “Carbon Offset” is a technical term for a metric tonne of CO2 gas that's been taken out of the atmosphere, often through plant-based means or it's been avoided release. So it was going to go up in the atmosphere, and someone changed, for example, a smokestack and now it's not. And so an offset tends to be considered a serial number that's unique that corresponds to this measured action. And that's been audited and certified, verified, and you pay for the serial number to be retired. So that's your like, serial number you paid for not only the action to happen, but also the verification of the action and registration. And I think, rather than getting in a binary like good-bad situation, I can say I commend the initiation of the concept in the 90s, because it started to get people to talk about carbon. I think from an interest in biodiversity and in permanent land conservation - so that all species are supported and having habitat, which we need to thrive, we need to evolve, right? Not just humans get to divide out the earth, like other things live here. In compassion for that activity, land-related carbon offset projects, not all but most are a challenge, because it's not actually permanent. So a lot of carbon offset projects where someone says, “Oh, I've protected this landscape.” They're 30 year projects. And that means in 30 years and a day, that landscape can be clear cut. I don't know what the future is in the market for forests and different things, but 30 years from now, that land is probably going to be too expensive to bring into conservation that's permanent. So I see it as very, very tragic that offsets are durational. It's sort of like a band aid for now. But, there are some projects, and these are really great projects, that are permanent. That are going to be forever, and also that that really did the right thing. So there's a mixed bag. My interest is in what's called Strategic Climate Funds, which is a term that came through Gallery Climate Coalition, and I think was possibly invented by Danny Chivers. It's great, it's called “SCFs,” and it's the art community's alternative to offsets. Essentially, with offsets, it's a retail product. So let's say you send $20, maybe 4% goes to the project, and the rest goes to the market maker, and also the registration, the audit, the validation and certification. It goes to make this product, so very little money actually gets to what you're trying to support. Another issue to date, and it could change, but to date with offsets has been transparency, like, this is being done in Canada. Well where in Canada? You see, like, a picture of a tree. So I think transparency was something that our community wanted, in addition to all the funds going into a project. And then the last thing had to do with ethics, you know, how are people being treated? What is the local labor? What is the on-the-ground situation? And so without transparency, and with the majority of the funds staying, for example, in the global north in the retail market of that carbon offset, there was really an issue that was just glaring that it wouldn't work for the arts community. So SCFs, or strategic climate funds came up as, instead of a retail product, you make a donation, and you make a donation to a nonprofit that is doing climate-centric work. Originally in creating SCFs, it would need to actually be carbon reduction work. So you can show that carbon dioxide was taken out of the atmosphere. And, and I think that that's largely stayed the same. But for example, sometimes education can really change carbon emissions, right? You learn to not do something, to act in different way, to evolve, and to adapt in new new manners. So with Art into Acres, in doing permanent forest conservation, and landscape habitat protection, we look at the actual carbon coefficients of what that forest is bringing down. And and that's just one aspect of land conservation, I definitely think it needs to be very clearly defined that the human presence, what it's doing for people's well being, watershed protection, what it's doing for biodiversity, these things are all components, and that land is not, quote unquote, equivalent with just a carbon number.

Hannah Brainard

And side note, am I correct that Art into Acres - all money taken in goes directly to the conservation projects, not toward travel or legal fees or anything like that?

Haley Mellin

Yeah, so Art into Acres is a restricted funding nonprofit, which means that all funds that come in are connected to specific projects at the point of donation, and then they are matched. So, whether it's matched at 100%, 200%, 300%, with just exceptionally wonderful partner foundations. So a dollar becomes three dollars, and it goes to fund the creation of a new permanent protected area in, you know, whatever the project is so that the donor knows exactly what it's going toward.

The funds of Art into Acres, the overhead is actually very efficient and low, thankfully, and it's funded by one donor supporter, the Children's Fund of New York. Thanks to the advocacy of an arts supporter, Lily White Johnson, and then and then the advisory board supports travel and other details. My time is funded by the National Philanthropic Trust by Thriving Futures DAF. So overall, yes, donations go at 100% to the project and they're very efficient, you know sometimes a new protected area, you know, you're funding legal costs, and you're funding the biodiversity survey, the mapmaking, the local team in doing their community meetings and surveys and just community conversations over a couple years. And so projects are very affordable, and therefore we can do them from the art sector at this level.

Hannah Brainard

So I just have one final question for you. Sort of seeing all of this work that you're doing for any artists or arts administrators who might be listening to this, how can you do this work and also take care of yourself and sort of nurture your own creative spirit in this process?

Haley Mellin

You mean, you mean me as a painter as a person?

Hannah Brainard

Yeah.

Haley Mellin

Oh, I really love painting and drawing. And I now have this dedicated practice where, at the end of the day, like 3 or 4 p.m. after doing emails and readings and things, I paint, I draw. I try to draw on site when I'm traveling. It's really wonderful for me to get to paint and draw the protected landscapes after they receive permanent status. Just to see these like vibrant, complex, confusing locations that are thriving and that are evolving and growing and living, like just the actual beauty of life. I think as a young person, like as a kid, you're just like, “whoa, being outside is so cool.” And so that is fulfilling for me. I just also love the arts community. Like, I really like working with fellow artists. And so Art into Acres primarily works with artists, where they donate one artwork and it goes to protect an area. And this is a very slow process. I'll have conversations over years with colleagues. The location I mentioned in Columbia was funded by a Carol Bove sculpture, and that was a four year process. I think we started our first meeting in 2018 and the donation happened in 2022. There's a great artist that is based in Ohio, Jonah Jacobs, who does these like reclaimed waste-based artworks where he makes things from refuse or things around the house. And we've had a conversation now, I think for a year and a half, and I think he's going to make a donation of a sculpture later this year. So I love, really love working with artists and hearing their questions and learning as they learn. I think we all just want to be in service to the most impactful environmental actions that we can have.

And for me, it stems from just going slow and kind of keeping my head down and trying to do a good job each day. And that's really, really been fulfilling. And you know, when you reached out earlier this year and told me about where you're studying and your program, I just think that education is kind of everything in the climate space because we all are shifting in our awareness and we're learning as we go. And education and just sharing and talking and chatting, being like, “Oh, I changed this or I did this.” It's really fun because there's just this relief of like, “Oh, okay, that wasn't that hard.” And you know, the climate space, it does have some dark aspects to it, like what's happening in terms of climate refugees and what's going to be unfolding and the major, major disadvantages to poor populations and to the global south as caused by activities that have benefited the global north - basically industrial revolution - is beyond unexplainable in the sadness, but also not acceptable. And so in this process It's going to take all of us to come together. Sustainability is everyone or it’s no one. And in coming together in the arts, I think arts are fundamentally creative and have this potential to like, be like - hey, we can change, we will change, and we have to change. We're going to do it by - one thing after the next, putting one foot in front of the other. And together, in civic union, we will make a better tomorrow.

Hannah Brainard

That's beautiful. Beautifully said. Again, thank you so much for your time and for the conversation. I've really enjoyed learning more about what you do, and I'm so sure that our AMT Lab audience will feel the same. So thank you so much.

Haley Mellin

Thank you very much, Hannah. It was a pleasure, and I hope everyone has a good rest of their semester and a good summer ahead.