In this installment of the Let’s Talk podcast series, AMT Lab staff Rachel Broughton and Samantha Sonnet discuss innovative user experience (UX) design in museums, as well as digital engagement with museums and where both fields might be headed in the future.

Rachel Broughton 

On some level with living artists, they're involved in how their work is seen in person. They pick the frame or what kind of the presentation? Yeah, they pick the presentation of their work a lot of the time, they can pick everything. But when it comes to their work online and I slapping a picture on our website, it's completely out of their hands. Right? And I think if you asked an artist, even artists that has nothing to do with digital art, how would you want your art to be experienced digitally? They would have a lot to say, yeah. What story would it tell online?

Rachel Broughton 

Welcome to another let's talk episode of Tech in the arts, the podcast series on arts management and technology laboratory. The goal of our Let's Talk series is to exchange ideas, bring awareness and stay on top of the trends. My name is Rachel Broughton. Today I'm here with Samantha sonnet. And we are going to be talking about few current technology trends in museums, we're going to talk about the future of museums, both from the perspective of user experience as well as online experiences.

Rachel Broughton 

So, Sam, do you want to get us started by talking a little bit about where you see the current standing of user experience and museums?

Samantha Sonnet 

Yeah, sure. So a lot of my research began by just having a general interest in UX design. In general, I kind of started out with the idea of thinking I was going to analyze the UX design of websites. And I realized that there wasn't a whole lot of personal interest there for me, and I think it was pretty much self explanatory. And after I thought about it a little bit more, I decided to move into the realm of museum spaces and comparing the digital spaces with the in person exhibits, especially with, you know, moving out of the COVID pandemic, and how that has affected the in person, museum space and attendance that exists in 2022. Because it's obviously very different than it was prior to the pandemic, I definitely see the future of museums expanding, and evolving. I'm really interested in the implementation of certain tech like, artificial intelligence, animation, virtual reality, augmented reality, the fusion of body and screen, a lot of different implementations of tech, and different artistic direction and development within specific exhibits. I dove unexpectedly into the UX design of architecture, as well in museums, which I didn't really necessarily consider a UX design. At first, I thought more of it, as you know, the type of designs and thoughtfulness and planning that goes into exhibits and creating greater attendance for these exhibits. But I found some interesting research from the Getty Center and a couple places abroad that have really interesting

Samantha Sonnet 

layouts in terms of not only their just building in general, but how you move from exhibit to exhibit and the different types of people in museums in their flow, I guess, the layout of the museum, or just the general psychology of that person, I specifically dove into information posted on the Knight Foundation website. And they're really invested in what they classify as innovative UX design, which I wanted to define. And I was luckily able to, to find it through this website. So they were able to give tons of grants and funding to specific museums that weren't necessarily, you know, big museums in the marketplace, but to fund their UX design experiences, because they thought that they were doing interesting things. It's really important for museums, for example, I am in contact currently with the Japanese American Museum of San Jose, who did a really interesting exhibit known as the Hidden histories of San Jose Japantown, where it's an AR VR experience where you walk around the town, use your phone, scan codes, stuff like that, where you can see specific hidden histories of the Japanese community throughout the town.

Samantha Sonnet 

And it's just really interesting, like it draws in a different type of community. I think, if more museums that are lesser known started to implement this and their attendance would probably boost and it would help because you know, COVID world where people can access museums online and at the comfort of their home and on their couch. It's not necessarily appealing to go out into the world where you know, you pose threat of sickness and cost and time. So the most important thing is finding new and innovative and exciting ways to draw people out of their homes for a low cost, not no cost. Obviously, you need to fund these projects, but make them excited about their opportunities. The biggest threat is digital substitutes. And I'm kind of interested to know what your findings were in terms of the threat of digital substitutes, because it's something that's probably not going to go away anytime soon.

Rachel Broughton 

 So you're saying the threat you see with the digital experiences with museums is that people won't be incentivized to come in person?

Samantha Sonnet 

Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

Rachel Broughton 

 Yeah. So that's mostly what my work has been about. And they overlap in the sense of like, what are these? There's a scope of study called, like the place bound determinants of behavior, what are those? How do we move through a space? And what does that mean about how we're interacting with the art, right? And, and what doesn't mean about what we're taking away from the experience. So from my perspective, like the digital realm of museums is only going to expand in the future. And I think this was also that threat was a fear. Even in the 90s, when museums first started having websites, they were hesitant to have any digital presence or to put their art online at all, even pictures of their exhibitions, for fear that people would get what they needed from that experience, and then not want to gratification. Exactly, yeah, I think a lot of that fear is misguided, because,at least for me, and from some of the research I've done, seeing works online can be a catalyst for wanting to see them in person, and interacting with the museum from the comfort of your home, especially for visitors who already don't feel like the museum is a place made for them. You're talking about, you know, what does the architecture suggest of a building? That can be daunting for a lot of visitors? In a lot of ways the elitism that museum architecture provokes.

Samantha Sonnet 

Yeah. And the lack of accessibility.

Rachel Broughton 

For sure. Yeah. So I think being able to experience museums online, can be a motivator for people to say, Oh, I've, I have some level of comfort, I have some level of level of knowledge of what is there and what I'm going to experience there should I go in person.

Samantha Sonnet 

Right. And I think the lack of socialization that occurred during the pandemic, also is a threat, because people don't want to go out and socialize with people. And if you are able to do it from your home, for people that are a little less social, then why would you go out to the museum, to see these things when you can get it for free, again, inside your home, little to no cost, no exposure. So I don't know if this is an issue that's necessarily ever gonna go away or can be combated, completely, but I think there's definitely ways to work around it and draw people out of the shadows.

Rachel Broughton 

So in your perspective, has that shift to online during the pandemic? And this heightened concentration of digital offerings? Has that made people has it made attendance fall in person museums? Is that the direct cause?

Samantha Sonnet 

I think it definitely is a factor. I don't know if it's a direct cause. I think a lot of people are afraid to go out because of the COVID pandemic. And like accessibility, like we had mentioned before, there's a lot of contributing factors. But I think that the substitute is definitely the most prevalent threat that museums need to focus on right now in terms of the digital space, because, like I said before, there's really no obvious solution to it. So I'm in contact with, but Phipps Conservatory in Pittsburgh, I've been in contact with their department, talking about how their implementation of technology into their UX designs and their exhibits has improved, remained constant or lessened their attendance and from the research that I gathered, it seems that obviously, there was a decrease during the pandemic because things were closed. But when things started to open back up again, they didn't have people coming through like normal. So it really did go back to its normal rate of attendance, but this could also be because Phipps is an indoor outdoor type of setting which most museums are not so you do have that airflow. That extra comfort of maybe we're not sharing these germs that other museums obviously don't have most of them, at least from a perspective of a museum like that, where it's Botanical Gardens, I don't really think there is a digital threat, because the whole experience is seeing the plants. And you know, the beauty in person, which obviously is not going to be the same for other museums. But I guess you could also pose the question of why are people not seeing, for example, like an art museum, like the Mattress Factory, or the Whitney Museum in New York, with the same beauty because if you can argue that plants, the beauty of nature needs to be seen in person, then you could also probably argue that these pieces of art should also be seen in person too.

Rachel Broughton 

And people do a lot of visitors like our only want to see art in person, right? The culture track did a study towards the tail end of lockdown. And asking people what they were doing digitally during lockdown in terms of arts and culture experiences. And people for the most part, the biggest percentage were people were watching individual performers online. So you know, musicians, and there were a lot of there's a lot of like home recordings and live streaming use of the music industry. Second to that was museums. So people were engaging digitally during the pandemic, but I don't know if it directly has a line between people deciding they don't need art in person. But an interesting factor of like, what I'm looking at is that, during that lockdown, we still have this way of thinking around experiencing art, that it has to be physical, it has to be just movement through space. So during lockdown, they a lot of arts institutions, got grants or spend part of their budget on 360 tours. I personal opinion, do not like 360 tours, I think there's a lot of problematic shortcomings when we try to replicate that physical experience online. And I think that it can never replace the physical experience of seeing art and moving through a museum. What I do think digital museums could do well and do a lot better digitally is honoring the objects themselves, seeing their digital offerings as a stewardship opportunity, rather than a visitor experience opportunity. So sort of taking digital assets out of the realm of user experience and into the realm of arts education, or programming. And really focusing on that aspect,

Samantha Sonnet 

Speaking about digital is that 31% of museums admitted that they have no digital strategy. And 29% claim that this process was in development, how can you necessarily have a digital presence without having any planned digital strategy. And this means that only 25% and have a planned or implemented digital strategy for their strategic plan. And 41% of museums don't have any defined goals?

Rachel Broughton 

Because yeah, currently is not great. It is not great. And definitely, we outsource our IT also, so. So it's like, it's there's no one managing it internally. And that's why when I'm talking about digital offerings, and where they could be versus where they're at, you go pick, you know, a museum, explore their website, it'll be it'll take a while to find their digital offerings. Maybe you want to watch an artist talk that's been recorded, a lot of them are on there. But there's no streamlined way to interact.

Samantha Sonnet 

Yeah, you always have to do some digging, it's harder than it needs to be to find these offerings. And even know that they exist. I mean, for somebody that's not experienced necessarily in the art industry, I don't think that they would know to even look for an artist talk, or something that will broaden their understanding of the art in general, is more so catered to people that know that things like those exist, but even for those types of people, they have to really dig in these websites. And it's hard to find this information. I don't necessarily know why that's an issue. I think that that should be, you know, digital 101 for people to just put it on the front page, make it accessible, make it known, so that everyone has a level playing field of expanding their art, knowledge and culture, I guess,

Rachel Broughton 

For sure what a lot of what my research has guided me to is just that we need separate digital portals. So the museum website has so much information on it. It has how do we get to the museum? What can we expect when we get there accessibility? You know, it has their past exhibitions, it has their staff information about their curatorial decisions. And then there's also the digital offerings muted within all of that information. So from my perspective, a standalone portal of digital engagement offerings that doesn't attempt to replicate the physical experience of the museum, but rather, honors the art and artists, in their specific context of online would be ideal. And some, some museums have done that the Hammer Museum in California has what's called the Hammer Channel where you can, it basically takes you to a separate portal that has information filtered by audio, video artists talks, piece by piece, you can search artists, you can search exhibitions, and they have a digital initiatives department. Right? Yeah.

Samantha Sonnet 

I guess my main question to you would be, where do you see the future of maybe digital offerings. On the flip side, let's play devil's advocate and say that digital offerings are not going to serve as a villain to in person offerings and exhibits, and that they're going to thrive and continue alongside working happily with each other in the years to come, even despite COVID Hopefully, declining and people being allowed to go back into in person activities. Where do you see that going?

Rachel Broughton 

Well, first of all, I don't think that is Devil's Advocate. That's just what I think. Like, I do think they can stand side by side and have a way of enhancing the experience of one another, they can work to conjointly, and not antagonistically. But I think, as I mentioned, we're gonna start seeing digital departments of museums. And I think that those departments with the right staff background, can create experiences that really immerse you in the art. And not necessarily just in like a VR portal way, like physically immerse you, I mean, in the way and in some ways, Google Arts and Culture is already doing this, I think they're setting the trends of what we're going to start to see in museums, so they have one part of their portal is called Art Up Close where you can they have really, really high resolution zoom images of paintings, so you can get up to a singular brushstroke in a giant Monet painting.

Samantha Sonnet 

Wow.

Rachel Broughton 

 And that's what that's what museums don't have right now is that's what we're missing is we can't see brushstrokes from a digital picture of work of art. I also think animation along with stationary physical works will be more popular, because we're seeing that with Google Arts and Culture, too, is, and a lot of these things are like, how does the artist inform how it's seen digitally? A lot of these projects that I've seen, that are really good artists has, is in the loop on like, how would I want my art to be? So I guess from that perspective, I'm really talking about living artists. But

Samantha Sonnet 

Yeah, involving the artists in the development of their work in the digital space.

Rachel Broughton 

Exactly. And we do I mean, on some level with living artists, they're involved in how their work is seen in person. They pick the frame, or what kind of the presentation. Yeah, they pick the presentation of their work, a lot of the time, they can't pick everything. But when it comes to their work online, and a slapping a picture on our website, is completely out of their hands. Right? And I think if you asked an artist, even an artist that has nothing to do with digital art, how would you want your art to be experienced digitally? They would have a lot to say,

Samantha Sonnet 

 yeah, absolutely.

Rachel Broughton 

 What story would it tell online?

Samantha Sonnet 

I mean, speaking from experience, I just finished last year, an art installation where I had a gallery opening, and I created over 60 pieces of works of art. And just thinking back this sparked my memory that looking at the website of the photos that were taken of my art, were so different than seeing the pieces in person because number one, I wasn't involved in the photography of my art pieces. I didn't decide what got published, I of course, got to install my art, and pick how it was laid out how it was presented, how I gave my artists talk about it.

Samantha Sonnet 

But funny enough, I was actually asked to record a video of my artist talking and never even got posted. So what was the point of, you know, having me tried to be involved in the digital publication of this when the photo that was posted online was washed out, you can barely see or feel the emotion that was intended to be portrayed through the art with just such a static, two dimensional image posted on the website that I had no discretion over. My work on a website could be that, you know, horribly presented imagine a work like that where you really need to see it in person to be able to understand the experience that that those works take you through. And then just to see a picture online, obviously, you're still going to be impressed and experienced some type of journey while looking at it. But it just can't even compare unless, like you said, living artists are involved in the digital publication. But I don't really know where that leaves it for artists that are no longer with us.

Rachel Broughton 

Another thing I do think in the future that will be more present in the digital realm for museums is 360 renders of objects, so not a 360 tour. But there's like art institute is starting to do it a little bit.

Rachel Broughton 

I do have just a follow up question about the UX in person stuff is, what kind of technologies you mentioned AR, but how do these technologies actually change people's physical paths through the museum?

Samantha Sonnet 

Well, for something like VR, I know a lot of issues have been raised about not losing the humaneness aspect. Because you are in a museum space, you're in a confined area, because you have to put the people that are experiencing the VR in an area that they can sit or stand at least have reality in the back of their head. Because you know, some of these technologies are so immersive that you forget that you are actually contained in a museum with other people experiencing same thing. So it's different from each technology, it can also just be an issue of problem solving, like Museum of Art and Design at Miami Dade College, which had an exhibit known as the Body Electric, which uses film and technology, like I mentioned before, has a fusion of body and screen. And that's more where you sit down and experience it rather than trekking across the entire town or trying to be contained in a VR setting. So it really differs on a project to project basis.

Rachel Broughton 

Yeah. And it sounds like it has the potential to break through the barriers of what is what is just the walls of the museum.

Samantha Sonnet 

for sure. Yeah, I think that that's definitely a misconception that I had before the research is that UX design has to exist within the walls. And clearly it doesn't, because museums are getting creative with how their interactivity can, how far it can go. So what is a piece of advice that you would give to a museum professional who wants to get into technology for UX design? I think that it's extremely important to get the feedback of your audience and know your immediate community, the background, and to be able to meet their needs, their interests, and understand their culture.

Samantha Sonnet 

Hence why I keep reverting back to the Japanese American Museum of San Jose because it is catered to their town. And I'm not necessarily saying that all museums should be just specifically catered to one culture. But I think having museums like that, or sections in your museum that appeal to certain groups of people or niches, then you'll be extremely effective in your UX design implementation. And what advice would you give for maybe the online offering somebody a professional in that area?

Rachel Broughton 

I would say it's from my interviews with professionals in the field, what seems like the number one barrier for people who are like I want more digital offerings I want to do a digital archive is that they need a team that agrees that that's important. I think it might be just changing that perspective, a little bit would be my biggest piece of advice.

Thank you for listening to Tech in the Arts. Be on the lookout for new episodes coming to you very soon. If you found this episode, informative, educational or inspirational. Be sure to send this to another arts or technology aficionado in your life. You can let us know what you think of this podcast by visiting our website amtlab.org. That's amt-lab.org or you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can follow us on Instagram at Tech in the arts or Facebook and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. We'll see you for the next episode.