In this episode, Victoria Sprowls interviews Darren Mok, a senior computer science major at Carnegie Mellon University and entrepreneur/co-founder of Pyx_Labs. Darren and Victoria discuss the potential for fashion and NFTs to intersect in both the physical and meta world. Conversations touch on creating physical fashion pieces utilizing NFTs, why NFTs are not just a passing fad, what to look out for in terms of NFT scams, and what there is to look forward to in the future of fashion and NFTs.

Darren Mok 0:02

Like, how can it be so valuable and like increase so quickly? And I think like a lot of people sort of struggle to understand that like the market can decide what something is worth. And in that, in that in this year's time, I think a lot of people have sort of started to understand how the technology works or like are just hearing about it more that people like a year ago who were like, "Oh, I hope you sold like all your NFTs like I hope you got out while you can." They're in return like asking me for advice now.

Victoria Sprowls 0:29

Welcome to an interview episode of Tech in the Arts, brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab at Carnegie Mellon University. My name is Victoria Sprowls, the Podcast Producer, and today I'm interviewing Darren Mok, a rising senior at Carnegie Mellon University pursuing his BS in computer science. This past year, Darren worked as an in-house designer for a luxury startup, FineDayClub and is in the process of developing his own luxury fashion house Pyx_Labs in the NFT space, which aims to redefine modern garments through a symbiotic system that presents an interconnected physical and digital experience. Darren, thank you for being here.

Darren Mok 1:04

Anytime happy to be here.

Victoria Sprowls 1:05

So my first question: I've heard of NF T is being used to create a virtual closet of sorts with different outfits you can wear inside of video games, or the metaverse. But your idea is to create physical fashion pieces out of digital NFTs. Why the inclusion of the physical element,

Darren Mok 1:24

Right, so I think there are a couple of key reasons why we want to include the physical element. First and foremost, just being a fan of fashion myself, my co-founder has also been making clothes, he was a designer for LG for a couple of years. So just in terms of something that I'm interested in, and something that I'm passionate about, that's part of the reason. But the bigger reason is probably because I think currently, NFTs have a lot of stigma around them, you either are really into it or you kind of think it's a fad or a joke.

Victoria Sprowls 1:53

Or you just know nothing about it and have no interest in learning about.

Darren Mok 1:56

Right. Exactly. So I think it's I think something that makes it really hard for a lot of people to sort of connect with and sort of understand the value proposition of NFTs is, it's hard for people outside of the space to sort of understand that. And I think a physical inclusion, something that's tangible, something that's visible, and especially if it is a luxury product, then I think the mainstream or people outside of the space might have more of an interest. And I also think, lastly, like there's sort of a gap in the space right now. There are other projects that sort of focus on including like a physical aspect. So some of them make toys. Fashion isn't sort of completely original, there are other brands that are trying to focus on streetwear. But as of right now, there isn't like, I don't think there is a huge emphasis on making clothes in the NFT space. So a big part of it is also distinguish ourselves and sort of have our project stand out from everybody else.

Victoria Sprowls 2:58

Come in on the ground floor. Because even the larger fashion houses that I have heard of, that kind of are dabbling in the NFT space. They're more just making collaborations within the metaverse or within video games instead of creating physical pieces like you were talking about.

Darren Mok 3:13

I think that that is partially true. It definitely was more so the case a couple of months ago, but I think recently, you know, like the space is so hot, there's so much money that's sort of being made on a daily basis that like all these traditional corporations. You know, they can't, they can't just like sit idly by. So a lot more such as, like Gucci has been getting involved. I know Dolce & Gabbana are starting their own collection like their second collection. And I think these brands are definitely trying to sort of include more of a physical aspect to it just because given where they come from traditionally. But it is definitely sort of a growing space.

Victoria Sprowls 3:50

Yeah, can you walk me through sort of in your mind how it will work creating, you know, physical pieces from NFT?

Darren Mok 3:57

Yeah, so I'm going to go a little bit into sort of how our ecosystem works, overall, and then maybe that will give you a better idea of sort of how the physical pieces tie in with the digital pieces. But first and foremost, we're going to be releasing, like the centerpiece of our ecosystem is going to be a membership pass. And that's sort of going to take the form of a profile picture, which is just, it's something that you commonly see in the space. I mean I'm sure you've heard of maybe like Bored Ape Yacht Club, or some of these other projects, which are, I would say in the space right now. And NFTs, sort of the most popular projects or ones that sort of utilize profile pictures just because buyers can have a really strong connection with the art maybe because it's unique and individual.

Victoria Sprowls 4:39

So it's not only about like buying a membership, you know, buying an NFT it's more about becoming a member of more of an exclusive club.

Darren Mok 4:47

Definitely. It is definitely becoming a member of an exclusive club and sort of this NFT by holding and owning this membership pass. You sort of get access to all of the exclusivity of our brand. So that's gonna include our future garments. And I'll go into a little more detail about the garments themselves. As well as, you know, we can, if you hold our original membership pass, we're going to airdrop future NFTs to our holders for free. They'll eventually get access to in-person parties. And then sort of when we get there, when we have enough money to sort of raise a physical storefront, that's also going to be exclusive to just members. So in order to shop at our physical stores, you'll actually need to own like a membership pass and own this NFT in order to shop there. And so that's sort of the first component of our ecosystem. So there are these profile pictures, but sort of what sets our profile pictures apart from everybody else, at least, you know, what I think sets it apart from everybody else is that they're actually going to be customizable. So they're not, they're going to be coming, maybe wearing like a base t-shirt or an undershirt. But all the garments that we're going to sell, you'll actually be able to customize this profile picture of yours to wear these digital garments that we sell. And so going into that a little more. So the second biggest part of our ecosystem are the garments themselves. And the way we plan on releasing them is we're going to be selling an NFT of like a digital like a digital garment. And if you own this digital garment, you know, we'll sort of check who like owns it in their digital wallet, and then at a certain time, we'll send them a physical piece that they get. And in the future, if you own the NFT, you can also use it so like every year, you know, maybe you can redeem one, like this product once, that's sort of what we have in mind right now.

Victoria Sprowls 6:38

So the first step is obviously becoming a part of, you know, having the membership. And then the second step is you can buy NFTs that are digital pieces, but that will eventually translate into a physical piece.

Darren Mok 6:51

Correct. And I don't want to give all the details away yet. But for our garments, you know, we're gonna have, we're gonna have, you know, certain things that will allow you so as you interact with the physical garment, that will actually change and evolve the digital version. And that's, we are planning on implementing, like augmented reality and some other things again, I don't want to get too into it, but that is the general idea. So it sort of works as an ecosystem. Again, the centerpiece is the membership pass, which sort of will give you access to all these other things, the biggest one being garments and like future collections.

Victoria Sprowls 7:33

Nice, what inspired you to come up with this tech-forward concept for a fashion brand in the first place.

Darren Mok 7:39

Um, to be honest, I think it's like, it almost felt like a very natural decision, just because of my personal interests. So obviously, I come from a pretty technical background, studying CS here. But I have also I mentioned earlier that I really love fashion. And that really, that passion, I think, really started at Carnegie Mellon. And through like, photography, and CMU lookbook, and sort of getting photos of people, I think I've just always been really into that space. And in my free time, I'm, you know, looking at shoots or, you know, lookbooks, or, you know, runway shows. So, it's just been a big passion of mine. And I've also been investing in NFTs for the past year or so. And I think just the more time I sort of spent investing and looking at these projects, the more I sort of realized that, like, I think there are some really, really valuable ones and some that are meant to stay. But there are also plenty of projects in the space right now that won't last the test of time.

Victoria Sprowls 8:37

So kind of trying to figure out what will, and how to utilize that and make it work.

Darren Mok 8:42

Yeah, I just think that like fashion, like fashion and NFTs sort of really work together in the sense that there is that idea of like gatekeeping, and like exclusivity and and like that community, I think there are a lot of overlaps between the two spaces and it definitely is growing.

Victoria Sprowls 8:59

In the sense, do you mean that there is gatekeeping or that there hopefully will not be?

Darren Mok 9:04

There is there is. But I think that's sort of part of fashion culture and NFT culture.

Victoria Sprowls 9:10

And that's why it's, you know, coveted and enjoyed.

Darren Mok 9:13

It feels like, I think it makes a lot of sense just to given like my background and my interests. And I also think like NFTs are sort of a great combination between sort of creative work, and just like tech in general. And I really feel like just my background was sort of exploring, you know, design work during my gap year, and being into photography and sort of just being in love with sort of all these creative passions, but you know, it just really works in line with my past experience and stuff like that. So it almost felt like it. It kind of feels like I was like born to do this. That's what I tell myself. No, I like it. Entrepreneur. So when I buy a piece of clothing from your fashion line, which we've already established would be through purchasing an NFT, am I also buying an NFT in the sense of like an artwork NFT along with it? As in the shirt I'm buying is linked to a specific piece of art, or am I buying the fashion piece that will enable me to wear any number of different NFTs that I already have previously purchased. So you're actually going to be buying the NFT. And then that will come with an RP sort of attached to it. So there will be a digital version of, you know, whatever garment you buy. And that's going to enable you to get the physical garment.

Victoria Sprowls 10:37

So each individual piece is attached to an individual artwork.

Darren Mok 10:41

Correct. But I did sort of mentioned that earlier, we will sort of have a way where like, as you interact with the physical piece -

Victoria Sprowls 10:48

It can be changed.

Darren Mok 10:49

-it will update and sort of evolve the digital artwork as well.

Victoria Sprowls 10:55

So you obviously see NFTs as more than just a passing fad, given your investment in this idea and I think it sounds great. Why do you think NFTs are here to stay? Kind of, why do you think they have that staying power? I know you talked about how some are not here to stay necessarily. But what do you think makes NFTs, like as an idea, the future?

Darren Mok 11:14

So this is a super loaded question. But I think there are a couple of key reasons. I remember, when I first started investing around like January or February when it really started blowing up. I definitely didn't think that NFTs would be here for the long haul. But I think, one, in the past year, there's been a huge influx of just people understanding what the technology is understanding blockchain, understanding decentralization, and sort of just realizing that this tech is very innovative, and it is very powerful. We're sort of just in the process of figuring out how it's applicable, and how to sort of create products that actually have value. So I think NFTs, right now, are in the infancy of that. So there are some very powerful ideas, and there's some really original companies, but it's, it reminds me very much of sort of like the internet bubble back in the day. So it's like, it is a very powerful tool. But it's, I feel like it's so revolutionary. And it's so bleeding edge that like the mass public almost needs to catch up and like fully understand how to do it. Because like, the barrier of entry of entering sort of the crypto space and NFTs is so high, like you have to understand how this technology works. And then if you want to buy cryptocurrency like that's a whole thing, and then understanding how to use it. And then, like, there's really steep learning curve. So I think like, that's sort of why people think, or nowadays, sort of think this was bad and there's also like narratives about it being bad before the environment, which is partially true and partially not true. So I think there are a lot of things working against it. And sort of getting people like I think breaking people's habits and introducing something that is like, going to completely change the way you interact with like digital goods is like it's pretty daunting for a lot of people. But I think like ultimately speaking, the technology is so powerful and like, in the past year, we've seen just way too much money flow into the space and it's like this idea of NFTs are so powerful now and there are so many people dedicating their lives to building projects or investing in it that like I think that you know, there will be microbubbles and there will be you know, at points where like it's not as hot but generally speaking, I think it is definitely here to stay. You have, you know, Facebook rebranding themselves to Meta. And there's like Jack Dorsey, who is the founder of Twitter, is super into it.

Victoria Sprowls 13:44

People that you see, as you know, innovators in the tech space are adopting this technology.

Darren Mok 13:50

Exactly.

Victoria Sprowls 13:50

Right. It's an interesting comparison to make to the internet bubble. You know, people who might have said that was a fad twenty years ago, you know, we would laugh at that now so...

Darren Mok 14:02

You know, it's, yeah, you know, even within this past year, I have seen so many people jump from, you know, being like, oh, I remember last year, when I first started investing in NFTs in February. I was, it was still during my gap year, I was in Taipei, and sort of nobody really knew about them, except for the fact that it's like, you're buying JPEGs?

Victoria Sprowls 14:24

They're basically like, you're buying nothing, like, what?

Darren Mok 14:27

You know, like, why, like, how can it be so valuable and, like increase so quickly? And I think like a lot of people sort of struggle to understand that like the market can decide what something is worth. And in that in that in this year's time, I think a lot of people have sort of started to understand how the technology works or like are just hearing about it more that people like a year ago who were like "Oh, I hope you sold like all your NFTs like I hope you got out while you can." They're in return like asking me for advice now and like asking me like, "Okay, like, you know, which project should I be looking to invest in like, what makes you know, an NFT valuable," and like... So, you know, even within the past year, I've seen so many people change, like their mentality and understanding of it.

Victoria Sprowls 15:09

And it's interesting that you say that the marketplace determines the worth, because that's similar to fashion, too. And so in that sense, the two really do go together well.

Darren Mok 15:17

Yeah. So yeah, even with, you know, I actually got into NFTs through... So I started off as part of the part of the reason why I got into fashion was I actually started off being like, really into sneakers. And I would spend a lot of my time reselling sneakers.

Victoria Sprowls 15:34

It's so funny because sneakers is another one where I'm like, "I don't understand how they can be worth so much money?"

Darren Mok 15:39

Yeah, a lot of people don't get it. And they're like, why would you pay $10,000 for a pair of shoes, which is like, that's a car or like a house.

Victoria Sprowls 15:45

And then you're never gonna wear them.

Darren Mok 15:47

I mean, yeah, some people don't ever wear them and use it as like an art display. Some people do. And then it's like, well, then why are you wearing?

Victoria Sprowls 15:53

Why would you pay for that?

Darren Mok 15:54

...why would you wear like $20,000 - you know what I mean? So the biggest thing is just I think over the past year watching, you know, just the people enter the space and watching corporations enter the space. And just watching it like establish itself and like legitimize itself.

Victoria Sprowls 16:12

Yeah, it does seem like it's here to stay. I also wanted to go back to something you said about the environmental impact. You know, we don't have to go too much into that. But I know that the fashion industry itself has kind of a large environmental footprint. And so I'm wondering if, in this way, you know, you mentioned that you would have the technology to sort of change the clothing or change the clothing within the metaverse and maybe that would at least decrease the the physical carbon footprint effect.

Darren Mok 16:42

Actually, there's. So I've been just, you know, as part of my research, I sort of keep in touch with what else is going on in the space. And there's actually a lot of arguments made for, you know, there's a lot of brands nowadays that are starting to do purely digital clothes. So it doesn't come with anything physical at all. And it's entirely through AR and a huge argument for that actually is like, you know, we're, uh, you don't like the amount of carbon footprint that we do for making like a digital shirt is way less.

Victoria Sprowls 17:13

It's way less than creating one in the physical world, right?

Darren Mok 17:15

It's way less, right, and then you can also lower the barrier of entries for people to maybe experience or test out your brand. And theoretically, you can wear like an infinite like, you can have an infinite number of designs.

Victoria Sprowls 17:27

So smart contracting is something that we spoke about on the last podcast with Tom Kalnas. In your opinion, what are some things that people need to look out for to make sure that they're not getting scammed in the NFT space?

Darren Mok 17:40

So scams are super, super common, and that empty space?

Victoria Sprowls 17:45

I was reading something about how like NFT and you know, cryptocurrency-based scams are becoming almost like one of the most common scams in the U.S. yeah.

Darren Mok 17:55

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Because it's so easily done. So there are a couple ways that scams happen in the space, you know, signing a bad smart contract is one of them. So an example of how that could be. So I think it's like, realistically, the only way that you know, like, a smart contract isn't going to screw you over, is like, you have to understand how to code yourself. And like you have to be able to read through the smart contract. Like that's that's like the foolproof way to do it.

Victoria Sprowls 18:21

So are you telling me, that the smart contract, it's not, it's in code?

Darren Mok 18:24

It's in code.

Victoria Sprowls 18:25

So it's not in layman's terms. It's not like reading a contract with a lawyer.

Darren Mok 18:28

A smart contract is any piece of code like a piece of code that's like uploaded to the solidity block blockchain for Ethereum.

Victoria Sprowls 18:34

So in the sense that you would hire like a lawyer to look over a contract for like an artist say in the physical world, maybe you should be hiring coders instead to help you with this.

Darren Mok 18:44

Yeah, if you I guess if you wanted to be very secure.

Victoria Sprowls 18:46

If you want to and if you have the money.

Darren Mok 18:45

Or if you were really worried about being scammed. So I think most common scams related to that is people will pretend to be like another project and then change like, will you send a phishing link. So once they send you a phishing link, you know, you might think it's like the legitimate project, and then you will connect your digital wallet to it. And then once you like, sign and connect your digital wallet, like because they're like trying to scam you, and once you have access to your wallet, they'll just like, clear out all your funds and like clear out all your NFTs. So I would say like, I haven't personally been scammed. I know a lot of people who have been.

Victoria Sprowls 19:25

Would you never give your your contact information to anyone for your digital wallet? That's like the number one?

Darren Mok 19:31

So you can give people like your wallet address so that people can like send you stuff but like, you should never give anybody like your seed phrase. Because your seed phrase is what allows you to access it. And that's...

Victoria Sprowls 19:43

Like a series of passwords, basically.

Darren Mok 19:44

Yeah, that's like basically giving somebody like your social security number.

Victoria Sprowls 19:48

Interesting. Okay, good to know.

Darren Mok 19:49

Yeah. But I would say like smart contract scams are definitely a thing. But it's more like you're more likely to fall for them not because like, like, yeah, you could get a, you could get a developer and you know somebody who programs to sort of look over it and sort of tell you okay, this is exactly what the smart contract is doing, like, watch out like it's a scam. But like most people don't do that, like most people are, like, just clicking on a website and then like connecting their wallet to like a scammy site. So it's probably like, it's probably not so much like, what do I need to do to avoid like, you know, falling for a scam, smart contract, but more so like, make sure all the links that you're clicking, and like, all the websites you're clicking are coming from an official source.

Victoria Sprowls 20:31

And not just an email - a phishing email.

Darren Mok 20:33

Well, yeah, I mean, I think emails are definitely a thing. But with Web3, it's it actually happens a lot more through like Discord DMS. So like, because everybody is sort of communicating on Discord and you sort of join their server. There's a lot of scammers and a lot of bots who will like just DM you saying, like, "Oh, you won this thing, or like you got access to like this project, if you click here, and mint now like, you'll get it," and like, almost every single one of those are scams.

Victoria Sprowls 20:59

Right. Which is the same with, you know, text messaging, emailing anything, just kind of be wary, if anyone sends you something that seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Darren Mok 21:09

But I wouldn't say like, I would say - yeah, so like, scammy smart contracts definitely are something that you like, need to have in mind. But I'd say it's more so keeping wary of like, links and what exactly you're connecting your wallet to and like what contracts you are signing off on.

Victoria Sprowls 21:25

Good to know.

Darren Mok 21:26

Generally speaking, like, because like smart contracts are code like you can, depending on how they work, you can actually like work around, like smart - you can, people actually like are able to hack smart contracts sometimes. Because it's like, again, like in order to like really understand it. Like you just need to be a developer and a good programmer. But for example, like something that some projects will try to do is that they'll try to limit, like, let's say there's a really, really hyped up NFT project. And so in order to sort of guarantee that as many people can buy it as possible, some projects will like limit, you know, like a certain wallet can only own up to two of this of this, like NFT. And you can have that written into the smart contract to try to prevent it from happening. So that's something that Adidas did when they released their NFT a couple of months back. But there's actually like a really smart programmer who on like Twitter, like, like, basically revealed how he like, wrote a script that that like looped around it, and basically just like bypassed this function that they wrote on their smart contracts, and they were able to buy like a couple hundred. And like, make a lot of money off of it.

Victoria Sprowls 22:33

All good things to keep in mind.

Darren Mok 22:35

Yeah, I mean, like, again, in order to like really know whether the smart contract itself is a scam, like, the only way is to like go through the smart contract itself, which is code. So you need to be like a programmer or a developer. Yeah. Yeah. You know, long story short.

Victoria Sprowls 22:51

What are you most looking forward to in the future intersection of fashion and NFTs?

Darren Mok 22:55

To be honest, I think it's Pyx_Labs ourselves, like I, I genuinely think that while fashion and NFTs are sort of being explored in the space right now, like, I think nobody is really approaching it with the same kind of mentality that we are, in the sense of, like, there are other people in the space sort of making physical goods that sort of, you can get through redeeming, like, you can redeem, like a physical good through your digital NFT. But I have sort of yet to see anybody come up with a way where the experiences are tied together, and how you interact with one thing will affect something else. Yeah. And I know, I'm being like, very, very high level and very mysterious about it. But you're just gonna, I mean -

Victoria Sprowls 23:47

We'll see when it happens, yeah.

Darren Mok 23:48

Yeah, so the plan is to, we're, ideally, we can launch our website within a month. So people can sort of get a better, like, because our product is very complicated like we're trying to make an entire ecosystem. So we will release a website where like people can have a much better understanding of our membership passes, and sort of the goal we're trying to do. And then, when we sort of get closer to launching the membership passes, we'll have a very in-depth sort of write-up about how our garments work and how they interact with each other.

Victoria Sprowls 24:18

Nice Well, I'm excited and you know, check that out when it when it comes out listeners Pyx_Labs. Yeah. And, you know, thank you for being here and kind of demystifying the idea of NFTs and fashion and I think everything that you said kind of does make it make sense, and it seems like the next level.

Darren Mok 24:37

Yeah. Again, I'm more than happy to I think in the past year I've like personally on-boarded so many people into the space just by explaining to them like what it is and how it works because yeah, like I mentioned, I think it's very complicated and it's pretty daunting if you don't know where you're coming from.

Victoria Sprowls 24:54

Yeah, well, you've helped demystify that experience and look out for Pyx_Labs - coming soon.

Darren Mok 25:00

All right, thanks.

Victoria Sprowls 25:01

Thank you. Thanks for being here.

Darren Mok 25:02

Yeah, of course.

Victoria Sprowls 25:03

Thanks for listening to the Tech in the Arts podcast. Let us know what you thought by visiting our website: amt-lab.org. That’s A-M-T dash L-A-B .org. Or, you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Twitter @TechintheArts, or on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. Thanks again for tuning in. If you found this episode, informative, educational, or inspirational - then send this to another arts aficionado in your life. We'll see you for the next episode.