In this episode, Victoria Sprowls interviews two Carnegie Mellon, Masters of Arts Management candidates: Olivia Browdy, currently the Social Media Manager at Symphony Tacoma, and Veronica Lopez, the Management Coordinator at Volta Music Foundation. The three discuss ways to integrate technology into music education moving forward. The conversation touches on how technology can alleviate challenges facing music education in underserved communities, how technology has changed the approach to music education, and whether technology will lessen the need for in-person music education.

Veronica Lopez 0:02

And then the pandemic hit. And we're like, what do we do? So we created a virtual after-school music program, primarily through Google Classroom. And currently, we have students in Florida, students in Guyana, students in Panama, and then a couple of other states, the United States, and it's still the same mission where we provide them free musical instruction, the instruments, the materials, everything that they need to succeed. It's just virtual.

Victoria Sprowls 0:26

Welcome to an interview episode of Tech in the Arts, brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab at Carnegie Mellon University. My name is Victoria Sprowls, the Podcast Producer, and today I'm interviewing two Carnegie Mellon, Masters of Arts Management candidates: Olivia Browdy, currently the Social Media Manager at Symphony Tacoma, and Veronica Lopez, the Management Coordinator at Volta Music Foundation. We'll be talking about how technology is impacting the future of music education. Thank you so much for being here today.

Veronica Lopez 0:54

Thank you for having us, Victoria.

Olivia Browdy 0:56

Hi. Thank you.

Victoria Sprowls 0:57

Yeah. So I want to start out with the first question, what do you see as the biggest challenges facing underserved communities in music education? And how can technology alleviate these challenges?

Veronica Lopez 1:08

I think this is a great question because there are many factors that, you know, underserved communities are facing, one being: access. And that's - particularly technology, especially right now with the pandemic. We, everyone had to move into distance learning, particularly in music education, I was actually going into a long-term substitute position at the first day of the pandemic.

Victoria Sprowls 1:29

Oh, wow.

Veronica Lopez 1:30

And that was my - I was going to be in charge of two hundred and seventy-five K-5 kids in person. And then the pandemic, literally that same day, we were told, take all of your stuff, because you are most likely not coming back, we will tell you that Friday night, March 13. And then that Monday, we were virtual all of a sudden, and it was a big challenge, not only for me as a new teacher but also for - no one knew what was going on. Everyone moved to Google Classroom. Thankfully, the school I was at already had some Google Classroom set up happening, but none where they would meet over Google Meet. But that was a good start to the pandemic, I guess transition. But technology itself, I will do, I tried to do a lot of work with underserved communities and specifically with like, I grew up low income. So I feel like I've had first-hand experience as to limited options or opportunities. And what I'm learning now through my MAM program is that there is access in these communities to a technological device, like they have access to technology. But then you need Wi-Fi to power that technology. And a lot of households do not have that access to Wi-Fi, or they have access to Wi-Fi but they don't have access to good Wi-Fi.

Victoria Sprowls 2:45

Exactly. And that's it can be an issue even with audio latency. Like you really need a good Wi-Fi connection or an Ethernet connection to make it really so that the latency is less.

Veronica Lopez 2:57

So with Volta Music Foundation, we are currently - so before the pandemic, we were originally set to be an organization that provided free musical instruction and education to Latin American countries. But when the pandemic hit, we had to revamp exactly what we were doing because we could no longer travel to countries such as, for example, like Guyana and Chile, and Cuba, where we originally would hold like music festivals or programming over the summer.

Victoria Sprowls 3:22

So a US-based company, doing international international work in in Latin America.

Veronica Lopez 3:28

Yes. And then the pandemic hit. And we're like, what do we do? So we created a virtual after-school music program, primarily through Google Classroom. And currently, we have students in Florida, students in Guyana students in Panama, and then a couple of other states, the United States. And it's still the same mission where we provide them free musical instruction, the instruments, the materials, everything that they need to succeed, it's just virtual. So I've had a little bit of experience with how exactly technology is impacting the students for this program, especially since a lot of them do come from low-income families with many more responsibilities.

Victoria Sprowls 4:04

So how does that work with with getting these students in, sometimes other countries, musical instruments?

Veronica Lopez 4:11

So with these countries, specifically, we have partnerships with the local schools, for example, in Guyana, we have two partnerships in Guyana, where the local schools provide the instruments,

Victoria Sprowls 4:23

and you provide the instruction. Oh, that's awesome. That's great. Because especially when you think about, you know, sometimes they're, even if they have the musical instruments, they just might not have someone who has the expertise to teach. Even if they might have the expertise in musical instruments.

Veronica Lopez 4:39

Exactly, it's pretty awesome.

Victoria Sprowls 4:41

Olivia, did you have anything to add?

Olivia Browdy 4:42

Yeah, so I actually kind of thought about this question from maybe a bit of an opposite perspective. Where music education can be very expensive. And technology is also very expensive as you mentioned, but there's a lot more drive to bring technology to people than there is to bring music education specifically to underserved communities. And so I think with the new technologies popping up, where you can use just a computer to compose or create music or interact with other students and musicians online. That brings a different kind of access to music education. Other than just having to get these expensive instruments and pay for expensive lessons. And maybe transportation might be an issue. So I think technology can help in that way as well since there is more initiative to bring technology into the classroom.

Victoria Sprowls 5:57

Yeah, so bouncing off of that, how has technology changed music education overall?

Olivia Browdy 6:02

I think the pandemic has been a real driving force in what changes have been made in music education. I don't have a very broad scope of the issues. But you know, I know in, in my experience in high school, all I did was bring my flute to school, and we read off of sheet music. And that was the whole thing.

Victoria Sprowls 6:28

Yeah, I remember, even in sixth grade, I played the cello for one year, and that's about all I did, yeah.

Olivia Browdy 6:34

But when the pandemic started, I was working with a high school in Orlando, Florida. And they really brought in a lot of these technologies like Flipgrid and Acapella, which are both, sort of, recording platforms, recording collaboration platforms, where you can upload videos in a closed space so that only your classroom can see it or record duets with yourself or friends. And it's not real-time collaboration, but it is they're both phone apps, they're easy to use.

Veronica Lopez 7:25

To add on to Olivia, I completely agree with - music is expensive, like and that's, I remember, I like that you bring your high school experience in because I started in middle school. And I remember, it was sitting on the floor with eighty kids clapping and counting. And then after six months, we got an instrument. And our teacher used to do like discussion boards, but it was on a chalkboard, like the only form of technology we had was a metronome that would like blast your ears off because it was a huge room. We didn't think of these things like Flipgrid and Acapella. And that was only that was ten years ago, it wasn't that long ago. But now after doing like student teaching and being a long-term sub, I find that it's difficult to say exactly where the push is coming from. Because during my student teaching, we didn't really use any, like fancy technology, we didn't use technology at all, actually, it was just the books, the kids had a piano and a whiteboard. And maybe some recordings. In my private teaching, I use a laptop and Zoom, I don't implement many other things. But, in terms of how it's helping the classroom, it is helping teachers just especially newer teachers, our age, if you choose to use it like Flat.io is a great website where students can just hop on and start composing their own music without any prior knowledge. They can just hop on and do that.

Victoria Sprowls 8:42

And I think that's great because it really taps into creativity, which is, you know, one of the whole points of having music education in schools in the first place.

Veronica Lopez 8:50

Yeah. Now there's like an abundance of tools that kids can do on their own from home, whether the teacher or not brings it up to them. And I think that's beautiful, really.

Victoria Sprowls 8:59

So how do each of you understand the role of audio latency as a disrupter to music education? And how good are the solutions you've found?

Olivia Browdy 9:09

So latency occur occurs because it takes time for data to travel, basically. And so the further away you are from somebody, the worse your connection is, the more power your computer is drawing all changes, how fast that data can travel. So from what I've seen, the solutions are programs like JamKazam and Jamulus and, and they're these programs were essentially a group of people, each in a different space has their own computer, headphones, maybe a microphone, good internet connection, maybe an Ethernet cable, all of these things can cut down on the havoc that latency reeks. And, and these programs take all of the recordings from each individual person mixes them and plays them back so that it sounds like you're playing in real-time. And as I mentioned, with location, even even these programs have a limit. I was watching a video on this recently for my research, nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and it takes the speed of light, it takes light, time to travel. So if you're on the other side of the world, it's going to take longer than if you're fifty feet away. So there are also challenges to the distance between those people. So for something like music, education, it can be, community music education, it can be really useful if people are a couple houses down from each other. It's not going to be as much of a problem as if somebody is in California and somebody else is in Florida, it's a lot easier.

Victoria Sprowls 11:06

Yeah, so what kind of issues has Volta Music Foundation run into, in having, you know, students that could be hundreds of miles away, or thousands of miles away?

Veronica Lopez 11:17

Considering that we are a virtual foundation, we experience this a lot, especially with our partner, with our students in Guyana, and like Panama, where the big issue really is latency, it's their Wi-Fi connection. And oftentimes, the teacher has to, the teaching assistant, in person with the students in Guyana, has to have a separate device already set up just in case one falls through. So that's something that we're still troubleshooting and trying to work with. And those are the that's a solution we've found right now, just having a backup to it - a device potentially faltering. But we haven't actually found something where - like a platform that has fixed these issues for the music education community, I don't not sure if it actually even exists yet. Because, like Olivia said, it's some of these platforms work when you're just like in the same room, or you're in a different classroom. But yes, when you're thinking countries or different states it's, going back to what I said earlier, it's that student's Wi-Fi connection, do they have good Wi-Fi? Or are they with a good provider? Are they in a good area of the city? Who is the provider? And within that, what package do they have? Do they have a low package? Do they have the expensive package? So it's a lot of little, well, not little. It's a lot of factors like that, that we have to experience as in Volta, and that we're hoping to hopefully get a bigger grasp on in the next couple of years.

Victoria Sprowls 12:41

Yeah, I mean, I get frustrated even when my phone calls drop. So I can't imagine, you know, trying to teach music, or you know, be in time with someone else, and how frustrating that could be, yeah. So whoever comes up with a solution to that will be very wealthy.

Veronica Lopez 12:59

I was gonna add on, I think teachers, the way they're trying to currently move around it is I know a lot of my colleagues, they will record their lessons, and then post those for the students to look at on on their own time at home. Or they'll record space small activities that the students can do on their own time while they're at home. That way, they don't have to run into the back and forth of Wi-Fi.

Victoria Sprowls 13:19

Right. Kind of on your own time. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned Flipgrid earlier. Do you think that there's an age range or a skill level where apps that are potentially useful, like Acapella and Flipgrid, stop being useful for musicians and they become a hassle, or it's beneficial for musicians of all ages and experience, Olivia?

Olivia Browdy 13:40

I think it can definitely be appropriate and beneficial to all age ranges and skill levels, just depending on how you want to use it and what you're looking for out of the technology. On the lower end of the spectrum, you know, for students in elementary school, it might be a bit much a bit of a hassle to teach them how to use it or have an effective way of using it where it's not just a commodity, and it's actually being useful in the lesson. You know, we've talked about already how it's helpful in a high school or middle school situation. And I think even in a professional setting, or adult amateurs, it can be, in some cases, just a fun tool to have fun with and make music with your friends in a low-stakes scenario. There's a lot of other technology out there that can make really high-quality products, but those might take longer or have more of a learning curve or you have to pay more for them. So apps like Acapella or Flipgrid, where you can just download an app and use it for free or maybe just pay a small monthly subscription, and do essentially the same thing. But just for fun and more intuitively, can be useful just for the creative process. And especially right now with social media, a lot of professional musicians are playing duets with themselves through Acapella and posting on social media and sharing that way.

Victoria Sprowls 15:24

Yeah, become a Tik Tok star by using Acapella? Definitely, definitely a use case. Yeah. As music and arts funding continues to be a large issue in the United States, do you see these virtual teaching technologies - do you think they'll be able to help safeguard and promote music education, even if it's taught in the classroom less and less?

Veronica Lopez 15:45

With this question, my hope is that music education is not taught less and less in the classroom. And, again, because of the pandemic and the way we are currently moving. With new technologies, it's really difficult to believe that it's difficult to say how long, much longer it's gonna be in the classroom. But I wanted to add on to a little bit to Olivia's previous point about how a lot of the teachers currently in the classroom, they're from all ages. So the learning curve, like for example, my student teacher, when I was teaching in the public schools, again, he didn't really use technology but didn't mean he couldn't. Like he knew how to use it, he just wasn't ready quite yet to implement it into his classroom. So it really depends on whether or not these teachers want to and whether they see it actually benefiting with the education that they're trying to provide. Some teachers just don't eat it in the way they teach. And that is completely okay.

Victoria Sprowls 16:37

Especially as we move back to more of an in-classroom setting.

Veronica Lopez 16:40

Yes, in the classroom setting, even if it is taught less and less, my hope too, is that as teachers become more comfortable trying to use this technology, they'll see ways to continue implementing it, whether it's at home instruction, or on the kids' own time.

Olivia Browdy 16:57

Yeah, I agree. I think especially at least right now, the platforms that we have, are very useful to be implemented in the classroom, or as you mentioned, in homework, being able to better take music education out of only being in the formal classroom, and being that "I bring my flute to school, read some sheet music, leave." And practicing has always been an at home on your own thing. And it will always be but with something like Flipgrid, you know, you can practice a little bit and then record something and show your friends and it becomes more collaborative, and people can learn from each other more than sitting at home getting frustrated that why can't I play the scale?

Victoria Sprowls 17:51

Yeah. So what do you think the downsides of music-making and teaching on the screen is, and how it will affect the next generation of musicians? You know, I know that the hope is that it will remain in classroom and what what is the big push if you if you had a big, you know, take on on why it should remain in the classroom and how how moving to technology would adversely affect the next generation of musicians.

Veronica Lopez 18:17

I think that the biggest pushback I'm getting from - I'm seeing from a lot of my musician friends and colleagues is the fact that virtual instruction does not allow for that personal connection, as most of us have seen through Hybrid Hybrid learning at CMU, at really anywhere that we've been, we've had to do hybrid or just purely remote. And with music: music is such a personal art, that part of the reason why students love taking music in class, in schools, is because you get to talk to your friends, you get to talk to your teachers, it's a place for kids to go after school if they don't want to go home yet, or if they necessarily might not even have a home to go back to. So they like staying after school. And with private teaching, I know that I personally love that one on one time with my teacher because he - there's a lot of things with music, depending on the - all instruments really, but you have to be able to move your students' hands, you have to be able to correct their form. And that's something that teachers have had to completely revamp their way of fixing specific, like physical issues over a camera. Because not - also depends on the student. If you're a five-year-old, you'll understand, but how as a teacher, am I going to better communicate, move your thumb this way on the violin, as a five-year-old, five-year-old versus a someone our age, twenty-four, will better understand that.

Olivia Browdy 19:35

That's a really good point. Even from the teacher perspective, watching somebody on a screen is a 2-D experience. So even as a teacher, maybe you can't even see what is going wrong.

Veronica Lopez 19:51

And there's a lot of things too, like, how is their stance there? Where are their feet? Are they turned too far right, too far left? You can't really see that, and when you're in person, you can literally do a 360 around your students and them around you, and go around and fix those issues that are - seem so minute, small, they seem so minor, but they're so important.

Victoria Sprowls 20:11

And if you don't fix them, you know, they could become huge issues later on.

Olivia Browdy 20:16

And harmful, in some cases.

Veronica Lopez 20:18

We can talk about that if you wanna get into it.

Victoria Sprowls 20:19

Yeah.

Veronica Lopez 20:20

What I am assuming you mean by harmful is that, for example, I play viola. And the beginning stages of a child's music education is really crucial to the way that they will develop as a musician. So if you don't set them up, right, as a beginner, those habits will stay over time. And eventually, they'll probably get to college and have to revamp their entire way of learning for like let's say the past twelve years. Yes, I'm speaking from experience. And it's small things like that, where if they've been trained to hold the viola in a specific way, but their sound isn't getting better, and no one ever told them why, and then they come to college, and the teacher says, "How about you tilt a little bit to the left, and stand up a little straighter, but move to the right." I know it's very hard over a podcast to see this. And then suddenly your sound opens up the. It's like your posture, like, your pain literally is gone. And it's the smallest way, it's the smallest factor of how you're standing, it's really it's all about posture. It changes everything. And you just basically don't want to do that. You want to set up a student right. From the beginning.

Olivia Browdy 21:29

Yeah, yeah. And, and also not even just as a musician, just as a human. You know, things like carpal tunnel, or focal dystonia, things that just physically can harm your body - from using the equipment the wrong way.

Veronica Lopez 21:44

I remember, there was a time - when I came to college, my own teaching professor, he changed - I did Alexander technique. And he basically changed a little bit about my own body, how I would stand and really my entire posture, he changed, he like just tweaked very little things. And then after a few months, he's like, how's that back pain, and I hadn't even thought about it in weeks, I was like, it's gone. And I haven't had that pain that I carried through middle school and high school since studying with him specifically with David Harding, and the School of Music at College of Fine Arts.

Victoria Sprowls 22:21

And then, as a last question, just kind of, you know, looking towards the future, what value does music education bring to students? And what are the different benefits of you know, music education in the classroom, even if it does sometimes have to be over Zoom or video conferencing?

Olivia Browdy 22:38

I mean, something that you touched on a bit earlier, is the space that music can provide to students to be creative and talk to each other and have fun in a school setting. I, in high school, went to a magnet school. So the school I went to was a half an hour away from where I lived, and my parents worked. And so I spent a lot of time just in the music room, talking to fellow musicians playing music, doing homework together. I think just this - music education really brings a sense of community into the classroom and into schools. And especially right now, when a lot of people are teaching to tests and worrying about standards, and...

Victoria Sprowls 23:40

...and especially in an age that can, you know, the COVID age, which can seem so isolating.

Veronica Lopez 23:44

Earlier, we were talking about students in underrepresented communities. That's what I meant with technology being so beautiful because despite how difficult it is to get it in some homes or get that access, it's still providing that sense of community. And some most, at least with Volta, the kids will come back in, you know, their Wi-Fi will shut down, they have to reset their entire modem, they'll come back in, because they love it so much. And, at least I hope they do. At least I hope they love it that much. But what I'm trying to get at is that it's a living thing. It's the sense of community, the sense of purpose. And it's just really a place where kids can come and be their own. And that goes for all types of arts. But with music, they can really come and be themselves. And I know that's why I loved it so much growing up.

Victoria Sprowls 24:30

Yeah, music and the arts is definitely something that cannot be replicated or substituted. So here's hoping for the future of music education, especially in classroom education. Yeah. Thank you both. Thank you so much for being here today and illuminating some of the technology and how that's impacting music education.

Olivia Browdy 24:49

Thanks for having us.

Veronica Lopez 24:50

Thank you for having us.

Victoria Sprowls 24:53

Thanks for listening to the Tech in the Arts podcast. If you found this episode, informative, educational, or inspirational, send this to another arts aficionado in your life. You can let us know what you thought by visiting our website: amt-lab.org. That’s A-M-T dash L-A-B .org. Or, you can email us at amtlabcmu@gmail.com. You can also follow us on Twitter @TechintheArts, or on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn at Arts Management and Technology Lab. We'll see you for the next episode.