In this episode, Ashley Anderson Kowach, former Chief Technology Manager, interviews contributor Lauren Saunders to discuss how Google My Maps can increase civic engagement with public art. Listen below to learn about the challenges and benefits of using an open-source map building tool.

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Intro: Hello AMT Lab listeners and welcome to an interview episode, brought to you by the Arts Management and Technology Lab. My name is Alyssa and I am the Podcast Producer. In this episode, our former Chief Technology Manager, Ashley Anderson Kowach, sat down with previous contributor Lauren Saunders to talk about Lauren’s research on open source tools for building maps, to help connect people with public art and civic engagement. We hope you enjoy this interview, brought to you by AMT Lab.

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Ashley Anderson: Hello AMT-Lab listeners. I'm here with Lauren Saunders a second year Master of Arts Management student at Carnegie Mellon University and a contributor to the AMT-Lab platform. Her research has been focused on cultural civic engagement and digital maps; a topic she began exploring in the fall semester and has used to begin building a functioning map of public art throughout downtown Pittsburgh. Hi Lauren, thank you for talking with me today.

Lauren Saunders: Hi Ashley, thank you for having me.

AA: So, could you please give the AMT-Lab listeners an overview of what you have been working on the past two semesters and some interesting highlights of what you have found in your research?

LS: Sure. So last semester, during the fall, AMT-Lab had this exciting opportunity to consider public art and the Internet of Things, and in thinking through that, it was thinking about what we hold in our hands when we're out in the world, and that connects us digitally to things in the world, and in this case, specifically public art. In thinking through that there was this idea of how do we get people to become more civically engaged, when they are viewing public art or participating in some kind of public art concept. What I thought was really interesting was this, this very idea of civic engagement and where public art comes to play in all of that. And and the thing that I've arrived at, through my research, is that civic engagement, I think a lot of people connect it with politics or, you know, showing up to listen to leaders in a certain capacity; sometimes contributing to causes that they believe in, but it can also really be about connecting you to the place in which all of those things happen.

AA: Okay.

LS: And I think that this idea of civic engagement as being connected to place is where public art plays a pivotal role. So, it can move us to consider the world that it is, it's very surrounding, and then lead to more active civic engagement, whether it's dialogue with other people in your community, considering that space and how you want to preserve it, or you know, who, who has the jurisdiction to make decisions about the space, because the public art is calling attention to that, and perhaps some other cause. So, that's sort of where that, all of this kind of started of like, Alright, so now we know the public artists there that it connects people to place. How can we do that in the Internet of Things and digitally? And that's where the maps come in.

Sorry, this is a very long-winded circle.

AA: No, that's great. So, you spent the majority of this the spring semester building a map for the Public Art and Internet of Things project, using Google My Maps, correct?

LS: Yes.

AA: Could you walk us through that experience?

LS: Sure. So, Google Maps is a wonderful open source tool through Google, where you can build the maps that you are likely to have engaged in either through your mobile app, or in looking up directions online. What's great about Google My Maps is it allows you to place points on a map, and then more information connected to those points. So, you can add photos or video or links to other media, as well as a brief description of what that is. And it's just a really nice way of connecting detailed information to geographic points. So, that was really what this was. And the experience was really simple and seamless. I think a lot of people are familiar with Google platforms and what they're like, and the fact that they feel very intuitive to a lot of people. And so, I think that that was, what my experience was, is that it was mostly intuitive. Although there were some limitations.

AA: Was it difficult at all to build a map on your own, given that you've not done map building before?

LS: There were some struggles, you know. Like, what does it mean, when a point on your map is on the second floor of the building? And what's the best way to show that?  That occurred with some of the public art spaces that we were looking at. And also, how do you incorporate directions? So really thinking about, like, perhaps a public art walking tour is set up in one way, is it better for it to be another in terms of logistics? For our case, for our purposes, actually, that wasn't necessary in how the original walking tour was built and putting together the map, but it was something I had to consider along the way.

AA: Okay. So, what was the workaround for you to navigate a point on a second floor in a building?

LS: So really placing the one point where it was outside the building, outside the building. And then the other point in and putting that detail in the little point, you have, like I said, that opportunity to add text and more information, and saying, like, note, this is located on the second floor, and so on, and so forth, in the Visitor Center.

AA: Cool. In your first part of your research, you spend some time discussing various map-based arts engagement programs, such as Story Maps, and Google Night Walk. How can a smaller arts organization leverage web-based mapping tools such as these?

LS: Oh, there's so many exciting ways. So, one in particular that I think is really exciting, is how you can engage donors. I think sometimes we struggle with showing our impact in a way that's exciting online, I think a lot of people are like, let's just do the issue PDF. And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, our annual reports live in that place and we kind of just hope maybe someone one day will read them. But what things like Esri Story Maps allows you to do is use things like media, geographic information, to show what communities you're actually impacting, and, and then connecting them to deeper information via media and text and narrative. So, there's much more of a storytelling experience, wayfinding for the user online. So yeah, I think donor engagement isn't an excellent way. I think another piece of this is, um, you know, folks who are working on preservation or certain kinds of visual projects that are dynamic and layered, and you want to show, and they're connected to place, right, you want to show something deeper. I think a great example of this is in Mt. Vernon. They just did major excavation on a slave cemetery. And it's really incredible to see how archaeologists, historians, folks who are really focused in preservation and storytelling came together to really make this project possible and to bring it to a worldwide audience because it lives on this public platform.

AA: Okay, so how would an organization that doesn't have sort of like a sprawling presence in a community, like, they're just sort of confined to, you know, a building or maybe, you know, a couple of buildings, I could see this being more applicable. But how would an organization that is just in one location, best use mapping?

LS: So, I think there are a few ways. One is, you know, where did your…the pieces in your building, let's say you’re a museum, come from, right? It's a great way to show where, where different pieces of art or artifacts have come from. And one example of this actually is another Story Maps that I think is really cool, where the Smithsonian showcased languages based on manuscripts and stuff that they have… languages that are soon possibly to be lost from the world. And you can see where they are in the world and listen to them. So, it's more of a way of connecting people in the building to something outside. But then the other like, the flip side of that is, there's an example where you can see, um, and I think this is great for educational purposes, Homer's The Odyssey, like all the places in The Odyssey on this map. Like what an exciting way to engage an audience with a text or artifacts associated with a text. Um, so there's a lot of exciting ways to do that. I think also a lot of things aside from, you know, things like Esri Story Maps, or Google My Maps is there are some apps such as Be Here Stories, which is from Museums and the Web, that is all about people uploading their personal stories. So, what would it be like if you saw either a live performance or something in a museum, and you wanted folks to share how they were connecting to it, or listen to other people's stories and how they connected to it? So, it's like a way of bringing people together through geographic information.

AA: Right. And I like this idea of taking something a little bit dense, like The Odyssey, and making it something that's more interactive and fun for like younger audiences, because, you know, reading is important…

LS: Yeah,

AA: and, and, and reading historical fiction, in particular, like, it can be in like…. And literature is, you know, it's an art form as well. But I feel like educators might might be facing a challenge of like, how do we engage more kids to understand these older texts that are really, you know, heady and use a language that is not, you know, not accessible anymore?

LS: Right.

AA: So, I think that's a really great way of…

LS: For sure. And I think you can see it both in literature, you could definitely see it with visual art. Like, where did the folks who painted the classics come from? What was their world at that time? But then also, in dramaturgical work for theaters and live performance and dance, it's just a way of connecting people either to their community, right, or to whatever is inside the confines of a wall; Where did it come from? You know, it's not always necessarily born from that space, or the source material of what it was born from isn't necessarily from that space. And like you said, it could be, it could feel inaccessible, it could feel distant, and these offer digital tools to bring people closer to that kind of work.

AA: Right. Do you have recommendations for smaller arts organizations that might not have somebody on staff who is well versed in GIS or anything like that? And if they're interested in exploring this space, how would they get started with this?

LS: Um, so I would say, first of all, like, I started off with no knowledge of any of this, and this was just barely a year ago. So, I would say the reason for that is because these wonderful complex systems are guided by organizations that have offered open source materials that are free or very low cost with lots of amazing informative guides. So, there's the time component, and that's real for any arts manager, or administrator, we all have a lot of things to do. But if you are in that space, where you're like, I have to make this engagement piece, I have to do something for my board, or my donors, to make something that's interesting to share impact in a different way, hey, here's an opportunity for free to do something. You know, the only thing you have to keep in mind is some of your data. It's publicly accessible in those instances with a lot of open source things. But that that's just something you can do. So, I would say Google My Maps in particular, and Esri Story Maps, they are open source tools that are especially helpful.

AA: Well great. I think that's hopefully useful to our listeners who might be considering

going into this space. So, you mention also in your paper about needing to first decide what the map is going to be about before taking any further steps. So, you know, if you're, if you're in a position in an arts organization that you have deciding power, great, you can probably go about doing this whenever you feel like it. But if you're in a position that is not like the director of a department, or even you're just the assistant of a department and you're listening to this episode, and you're thinking to yourself, “I would like to do this”, how would you... what do you recommend for them to maybe craft, as far as like a pitch to their director, as to why this would be a necessary venture?

LS: So I would say that, when I say like, you have to know what it is that you want to say, it's just because when you get into these tools, there's so many options and layouts and things that you might be able to do, colors to choose from, that it can be overwhelming if you don't know what story you want to tell. So that's just really, I would say, if you're, if you need that permission from other people on your team, I would say like anything, draft a proposal. Really think about what you think this is a good tool for. Or if you're like, you know, I just kind of want to add this in my professional skills. Maybe look around, ask around and see if there's something that is geographically related to some story that your organization would like to tell, and say, “Hey, you know, can I take a stab at this? It's, it's free. It doesn't cost us anything other than my time.” And, you know, which, which may be precious, but if it's for the right reason, then it's a great opportunity.

AA: Well, thanks, Lauren. This has been great talking with you, and what are your next steps? What are you, what are you accomplishing as we wrap up this semester?

LS: So, I've really been looking specifically at the Google tool, My Maps. Because thinking about there's so many cities, small towns even, that have a plethora of downtown, or art public art in this specific area. And so, this is a great tool, I think, for different cities, arts organizations, arts service organizations working in the public art sphere, to consider using. And so I, I've done this experiment, I'm going to write up about it. I'm also going to explain the technology a little bit. So, for folks who, like don't even understand what GPS is, and I don't mean that in a condescending way, because I thought I knew what GPS is, and you know, now I'm like, “Oh, now I really know what GPS is”.

AA: Yeah, for most of us, it's just this thing we live with. We have no idea what it actually does.

LS: Yes! Exactly! And really, like ultimately what it is… it’s just digital coordinates, right? Like, it's just all it is, is latitude and longitude. But, you know, I think it's going to dive into breaking down the tech a little bit more and give some real world examples. So, there's our experiment through this this PAIoT project, but there's also very much individuals who are not even connected to organizations and are just passionate about public art in their cities and have decided, like, “Hey, I'm going to do this, I'm going to build a series of public art maps where people can have tours that guide them right from their phones”, or there are, there are arts organizations that have done this, and also, city governments that have done this work, both nationally and internationally. So, my research will sort of coalesce these ideas, the experiment, and also examples of case studies in the field, so that folks have different ways of considering how this might apply to their work in the public art in their world.

AA: Great. Well, I think our listeners will be looking forward to reading the final product and learning a bit more about maps. Maps and civic engagement.

LS: Maps and civic engagement, it's a real thing, and it's fun to nerd out about so thanks for having me on here.

AA: Oh, thank you!

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Outgoing Message: Thanks for listening to the Arts Management and Technology Lab podcast series. You can read more on the intersection between the arts and technology at www.amt- lab.org. Or, you can listen to more interviews and discussions and our podcast series on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, or Stitcher. Thank you for joining us.

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